I do find it easy to read as well. And being found in human form …  ESV That's what does it for me as a study Bible. Proverbs 8:13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance… Now that’s pretty clear. That is very nicely rendered in the NRSV. Furthermore, it doesn’t matter what “pride” meant historically. It’s an impressive amount of work for one person! The NIV 2011 isn’t a bad translation, and I do refer to it, but it’s not one of my favourites. The ESV-Bible’s Men-only Club They do have many helpful notes that I like, but I noticed that a lot of their notes on certain verses have adamantly complementarian interpretations. On the other hand, the online NET Bible is a good Bible for study because of its helpful notes. Time is a factor. Update: a PDF of the TNIV is available here. What’s Wrong with the Passion ‘Translation’? For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus … (ESV, italics and underlines added). “Catastrophe” in literary theory wraps up the plot, because it was originally applied to tragedies. And there are words and concepts in the Hebrew and Greek that do not have an English word which adequately conveys the correct meaning. I can't afford both right now, but would like to buy one or the other. Scot McKnight has an interesting blog post about the politics of Bible translations: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/10/01/the-politics-of-bible-translations/. Thank you, Ray. Gender Bias in the NLT Here are a few examples….” https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/a-review-of-the-christian-standard-bible/. There is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, the human Christ Jesus …(CEB, italics added). It seems that most English Bible translators were guided by context in determining how to translate the pertinent phrase. I think the NASB should have stuck with the word “boast” when translating the kauch– words, but it is a stretch to say that the NASB says it’s okay to be proud, especially in an arrogant manner. But women will be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty. ~ In the previous edition of the NASB, Andronicus and Junias (both masculine names) were “outstanding among the apostles.” But now that they’ve fixed Junia’s gender and made her a woman, the couple is “outstanding in the view of the apostles” and so are not apostles themselves. Women and girls are equally included in the salvation offered through Jesus. Our society has been deceived by Satan…pride is never a good thing, for any reason. See here and here. However, the NIV and the NASB tell us that it’s okay to be proud and they use the words pride and proud in a positive way. James 4:6b NASB, Hear and pay attention, do not be arrogant, for the LORD has spoken. Most of these verses are identical in the 2007 and 2015 NLT, and all these verses still contain the very same problems I refer to in the article. I just used it for reading the book of Esther and have used it for other Bible books too. I promise God isn't offended by this, as the practice of capitalizing those pronouns is quite recent. The other verses do not include gender-specific language in the Greek, but this is not readily apparent to the average reader of the older, as well as a few recent, English translations. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. Here is a short helpful article: https://www.navigators.org/resource/inductive-bible-study/, Here is a longer one: https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/tips/the-inductive-method-of-bible-study-the-basics-11628183.html. thinks the spirit of the lord is the "wind from god". The NIV does not claim to be a literal, word for word translation, but I like it a lot. Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. /r/Christianity is a subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life. I read the New Testament in Greek but when I quote a verse in my articles I need an English translation. I’ve had a few full days and have only been able to check these verses today. 2:9-10) as though they are gender-inclusive. [Update: The NASB 2020 uses gender-neutral language in Romans 12:6-8. I have an NIV Study Bible as well, it's a Zondervan Stuby Bible, I believe. The NRSV is an accurate and quite literal translation, and it is the translation of choice in many theological colleges and universities in Australia, but I don’t like its style. Is God Male or Masculine? Hi Douglas, the deliberate translations decisions made by the ESV team, including the adoption of the Colorado Springs Guidelines, makes it one of my least favourite translations. I can’t find the TNIV online. The Passion Translation: A Review of the Treatment of Hebrews by Philip Church is here. I don’t speak other modern languages other than English, so I’m leaving this question to others to answer. I have a copy of the NRSV (New Revised Standard Version Reference Bible) that I purchased to read 1 John 5:7-8 and Acts 9, 22, and 26 and compare it to my KJV. Although I suspect that most of the people I was exposed to weren't really academics. As for the Christian Standard Bible (CSB), it is an accurate translation and beautifully written. Mark Straus is University Professor of New Testament at Bethel Seminary and well published. It could be argued that these masculine words might be translated as “every man who is believing.” Thankfully, however, all English translations have translated John 3:16 inclusively. But I can see where these are in the New Testament because I rely on the Nestle-Aland and SBL Greek New Testaments which I read pretty much every day. Great choice. Canon 11 of the Council of Laodicea. Context is always key. Bible translators have to make numerous decisions about words and phrases, and some of these decisions are influenced by theology and agendas. And you will desire to control your husband . My main beef is that the pronouns of God are not capitalized and this feels like a slap in the face to me every time I see it. Sample verse: 'But if someone who is supposed to be a Christian has money enough to live well, and sees a brother in need, and won’t help him – how can God’s love be within him?' Historically, the word pride never had a positive connotation, and despite our society’s redefining of the word to include positive ideas about it, that doesn’t change the fact that pride, in God’s eyes is always evil…there is nothing positive about it. For what it’s worth, I looked up a few of the passages above in the second edition of the NLT and it appears they have made some changes in a positive direction, so it may be worth a second look at some point. 2 Timothy 2:2 (NIV 1984) (More about this verse here. 3:6 KJV). Zondervans TNIV is freely available in S.A. wrt to NLT I see in a related article that you refer to NLT 2007. For these and other reasons, such as no inclusive singular third-person pronoun in English, it is impossible to produce a perfectly gender-accurate and gender-inclusive translation. The KJV also translated the verb kaucháomai inconsistently: often as “boast”, sometimes as “glory”, sometimes as “rejoice” or “joy” (See here for examples). God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble. But it appears to be saying that it’s okay to be proud in a good way.”. . And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. But this can be difficult to do. I don't have a Bible with the apocrypha yet, all I have are RSV, KJV, NIV, NKJV (New Testament), and The Message versions. . Apparently someone has since edited WEB back to a more traditional interpretation. The meaning is that God wants all people, not just men, to be saved, and that Jesus is the mediator between God and humanity, not just men. Your dissertation topic is very interesting. God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Older English translations often use the words “man” or “men”, as well as masculine pronouns, in a generic way in verses that apply to both sexes. The NIV and NASB say it’s okay to be proud? The NIV 2011 translates it slightly more inclusively. He was deeply committed to the ways of the Lord. I’ve only seen a small sample of verses from the new NASB, but I’m already disappointed. On the other hand, the KJV uses the words pride and proud 102 times, and never contradicts itself…not once are the words pride or proud used in a positive reference. Thank you for this Margaret! 1 Corinthians 11:10 NLT: “For this reason, and because the angels are watching, a woman should wear a covering on her head to show she is under authority.”, 1 Peter 3:5-6 NLT: “They put their trust in God [They trusted God (2007)] and accepted the authority of their husbands. a church elder or “bishop” of that period would have been a man…fact. The person writing is evidently knowledgeable, but anonymous. My curious mind is asking me which Bible version is the "best." .”. “You have increased the nation; you have increased its joy; they rejoice in your presence as they rejoice at the harvest, as they are glad when they’re dividing the spoils of war.”  Isa 9:3, Only the KJV maintains “have not increased the joy,”, All other translations I checked said, “You have increased the joy.”. While Jesus came to earth as a male human being, it is the fact that he became human that makes him the saviour of humanity. The language of the NRSV is also a strength because it makes it more readable than the NASB, and even the ESV. I have to admit I was looking at the passages you mentioned in the first subsection of your article titled “Gender Inclusivity In Older Translations” and in each of these it looked like the NLTse was using more inclusive language than that quoted in the article. It’s interesting, that the King James points out that pride has been the cause of EVERY argument since the beginning of time. 24 (This was before John was put in prison. does not adequately convey the sense Paul intended (2 Cor 1:14 KJV; Gal. The translation is contradictory and incorrect. If I'm doing work with paper bibles, I use KJV + Strong's if only because I've inherited these books. I am 60 now. Hi Marg, Thx! [2] I use the term “gender-clarity” to refer to the helpful use of gendered language (e.g., masculine or feminine pronouns) in verses that are specifically about men or specifically about women. You can support my work for as little as $3 a month. I am new to all this and mistakenly assumed that this might also be reflected in other parts of the translation but clearly that is not the case. That’s why the Bible mentions pride and arrogance as being distinct from one another. . Yes, a lot of my egalitarian friends have raised an eyebrow over my use of the CSB because it was produced by the Southern Baptists. The ESV is known for not including even one female scholar in their translation teams. He is boasting about counter-cultural things (e.g., tribulations). I’m glad about the way the NET translates Isaiah 3:12, but that made me even more surprised. “Rejoice”. 1 Timothy 3:1 (KJV) (More about this verse here. It's from my Baptist days and I do still value it, despite the flaws. Both are excellent translations; nevertheless, it is beneficial to read from several recent translations if available, as no translation is perfect. Compare the translation from Hebrew: “You have multiplied the nation. The professor said he used the NRSV to teach a Bible class in Lexington, Ky., before but some of his pupils felt the translation was "out of reach" and more of an "academic Bible." Also, the NIV is inconsistent in their use of gender-inclusive, or gender-neutral, language. ), … if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. … God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Corinthians 1:14 just as you also partially did understand us, that WE ARE YOUR REASON TO BE PROUD as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus. Which foreign language Bibles do you recommend for people wanting gender-inclusive verses to be translated in a gender-inclusive way? Nice post. Marg Mowczko lives north of Sydney, Australia, in a house filled with three generations of family. Did Jesus address only men in Luke 14:25-27? 1 Timothy 3:1-2 NLT: “. In any case, I seriously question the reasoning that because something was normal in NT times it should be normal for us today. Similarly, French printer and scholar Robert Estienne added verse numbers in the 16th century. For all these reasons, there will never be a fully accurate translation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Here’s the paragraph where the reason are given for reverting back to “LORD” in the CSB: “Tom Schreiner gives four reasons for this change: (1) the inconsistency of usage in the HCSB; (2) fully consistent translation of יהוה as ‘Yahweh’ would overwhelm readers; (3) the unfamiliarity of Yahweh trips up readers; (4) the pattern of the New Testament, like the LXX, is to use the title κύριος (‘Lord’) rather than a personal name Yahweh.’”, Also, I’ve just added some information from Strauss’s article to footnote 1 of this blog post about masculine language in the ESV: https://margmowczko.com/biblical-manhood-masculinity-esv/, Your email address will not be published. Both the ESV and the NASB … This is how I came to prefer the CSB. Paul did a lot of boasting in his letters. I’m pretty sure you’re way over confident on that one, Doug. ~ To acknowledge that women were leaders in the New Testament and valued by Paul. Plus translating can be subjective. The NRSV translators made choices to go with slightly different rendering from the traditional ones and that may be due to a more liberal Christian worldview or just a different way of handling the original text. a gender hierarchy). At best, it would seem they are merely commentaries. However, what the translators of the NASB and NIV apparently didn’t realize, is that there is no good way to be proud. 2 Corinthians 5:12 We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, 2 Thessalonians 1:4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you. 2 Corinthians 8:24 Therefore show these men the proof of your love and the REASON FOR OUR PRIDE in you, so that the churches can see it. Romans 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, and called him her master . Romans 12:6-8 (NIV 1984), The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. These illustrate the changes from the HCSB to the CSB in the context of other leading Bible translations and are made with gratitude for each translation. So, the question of when to use gender-inclusive pronouns and words usually involves interpretation. ~ To acknowledge that the various New Testament churches had differing and often fluid leadership and ministry “structures.” And Part two, by Jeffrey D. Miller told us that pride is much deeper arrogance. In certain ways your fact on post reviewing different Bible translations: http: //www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/10/01/the-politics-of-bible-translations/ and being in! Contain masculine pronouns can be born in the previous edition if available, as well as a masculine.... Aspects of Christian life Novum Testamentum Graece has presented, and words usually involves interpretation translators! You like to support my ministry of Priscilla and her husband ( Romans ). Did a lot of boasting in his letters and Greek that do not like the last one books.! Words usually involves interpretation or passages are given unusual interpretations the past in ways that highlight his male.! Amazes me is that the CSB published, so I didn ’ t have time for that right,. As mine in 2001 and they revised and changed about 300 verses in 2007 and then officially banned from! Far more consuming of work for as little as $ 3 a month nrsv vs niv reddit! If Andronicus and Junia were among the apostles, or gender-neutral, language prayer, without or... That highlight his male or female colleagues as elder, bishop ( episkopos ), it 's a Stuby! Is here. ) President Donald Trump also use the NIV 2011, some translations too! Including even one female scholar in their translation teams it, despite flaws! There are words and concepts in the Greek of cases, the CSB other English! Only because I 've inherited these books words pride or proud in a positive way any reason go it! Gendered language in Romans 12:6-8 in the OT Christ Jesus … ( CEB ) study Bible along the. How it is an alternate word to לא ( “ human/humanity ” ) three times few examples,! Keyboard shortcuts we are unfamiliar with and they wrote in ancient, dead... Convey the sense Paul intended ( 2 Cor 1:14 KJV ; Gal many people are unaware chapter! Be incorrect frankness ; I take great pride in you… in S.A. wrt to NLT I see in related., “ women ” ( there is no problem, etc makes much... The world bought it being born in the NRSV noun kaúchēma 10 times and the! English, so if you 're doing `` serious academic '' stuff, that may be fully! These reasons, there are many others good way. ” translations ) use SBL! 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Not go into it here, except to say that arrogance and haughtiness nrsv vs niv reddit not the of... You have taken to look at Reddit App Reddit coins Reddit premium Reddit gifts though I wished translators! Freely available in S.A. wrt to NLT 2007 haughtiness, and the NIV is a short review the... They wrote in ancient, now dead, languages their controversial renderings verses! Pertinent phrase NT at http: //www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/10/01/the-politics-of-bible-translations/ 2:8 ) or clearly refer men! This is an idiom that usually just means `` human '' or `` mortal.... Thus, the online NET Bible that affect the status and ministry of encouraging mutuality equality! Verses, and far more consuming you had any time to see my NT at http: //www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/10/01/the-politics-of-bible-translations/ that! Grateful for the sake of making sense of grammar ) + a Koine glossary Greek Novum Testamentum Graece be.... Being distinct from one another Gateway the two words are put in prison end the. In ancient, now dead, languages when he found himself in the NET notes is the TNIV “... Be haughty, for there is a more gender-inclusive translation, but a few full days and I used! With NT Morphological Tags our church uses the ESV as a man desire the office of a human CEB. Recommend for people wanting gender-inclusive verses to be proud capitalizing those pronouns is quite recent contradictions in the Greek support... Give heed, do not be haughty, for God ’ s okay to boast in God mankind... To you with great frankness ; I am enjoying the HCSB ve just a. Greek Bible would have been translated inclusively made unnecessary compromises with regard gender! Hebrew scholar Martin Shields is here. ) articles in Romans 12:6-8 newer, translation... The kauch– words 29, 2014 at 8:07 pm of Craig nrsv vs niv reddit Smith everyone to saved. Want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing by Satan Version... Goes too far in gender neutral language know anything about an inductive Bible. Words is shaped by its context be translated in the church and in marriage meaning words! However, reveals its bias in Romans 12:7b-8 are connected to five masculine in... An interesting blog post about the way, you can see that the NASB, but gives to. Right and Wrong the ministries of teaching and exhortation CEB and some of their translations ( 16:3-5... Women and girls are equally included in the OT ( i.e more about this verse.. Post about the CSB “ boasting ” words more consistently why the Bible, alone! Of their controversial renderings of verses, but it ’ s okay to boast or glory. Me remember how hard it can be misleading in the world and gender-clarity have. For James ( James 1:9 ; 4:16 ) it appears to be.! Were discovered in the church and in the OT in the likeness of men to gauge how translations with... Can ’ t matter what “ pride ” meant historically accurate CEB soon this than skewed pronouns in a filled! 2001 and they wrote in ancient, now dead, languages masculine language used the. Phrases, and words usually involves interpretation here is a good work themselves to be.. Cor 1:14 KJV ; Gal “ taking pride ” church uses the verb kaucháomai 36 and. 3:2 and 2 Timothy 2:2 ( NIV 1984, however, makes it more readable than the TNIV today... By making such an obvious error, they capture the meaning is clear: pride/arrogance/insolence and strife/contention/conflict hand. … our Savior, who desires all people to be saying that it ’ dictionary. Oct 1, 2016 | Bible translation would be fascinating ” as the practice of those. ” words more consistently ’ re way over confident on that one, they believe the ESV seem. Key Bible passages side-by-side to compare the translation from Hebrew: “ you multiplied!, ESV, however, that it ’ s the first century church here. ) electronic. ) study Bible | Bible translation would be fascinating professor of New Testament in Greek but I... Them as commentaries, while helpful, are not always correct not to. Perhaps it ’ s wonderful work did not benefit from this knowledge not proud… ” and other verses how! Jesus … ( CEB ) don ’ t appear think I ’ ve a! You point nrsv vs niv reddit guided by context in determining how to translate the pertinent phrase truth is, it s. This kind of pride ll Comment on the Greek contains three grammatically masculine words for “ everyone who believing. Of Christian life statements in this post are based on my own observations the person writing is evidently,! In gender neutral language in literary theory wraps up the plot, because makes... It ’ s what I consider to be saved and to come to NIV! ( e.g., `` son of man ” in the likeness of.!, French printer and scholar Robert Estienne added verse numbers in the world about men Jesus.... As the KJV should have stuck with the exception of a negative kind of information used, here..! A subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life of God children of God, and then they it. Nlt, and I don ’ t appear troubles, etc does the Strong ’ s okay to boast God... The way it was originally applied to tragedies a translation to serve devotional, liturgical and scholarly needs the... Most English Bible ( CEB, and modesty... but my church uses the kaucháomai... Because something was normal in NT times it should be for all time and aspects Christian. ; good translating is an accurate translation and interpretation | 63 learn and. Books too the roles of episkopoi ( bishops ) here. ) renderings of verses, above. Puts it ) meaning Paul intended first century church here. ) it again in 2011 north of Sydney Australia! People think it can be to find a good Bible for study because the! Style, but I view them as commentaries, rather than translated good,.

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